riseupwithfists: art by rick veitch (shirley's got her eye on you)
the artist formerly known as oneangrykate ([personal profile] riseupwithfists) wrote2010-05-30 05:17 pm
Entry tags:

Intersectionality: you can has it.

Ugh, I've stopped and restarted this several times, and inside me there's a much longer version of this post in which I explore in depth the problems with navigating in the world that we live in and what that says about how we navigate fannish space, and also the problems I've been having lately with the concept of fannish policing, but I will say this:

Can we stop conflating not writing/shipping het pairings (or not writing/shipping an equal ratio of male/male and female/female pairings) with misogyny? Please? It's a lot more complicated than that, and I've been seeing a lot of very dense, difficult issues compressed into a dismissive simplicity that isn't necessarily accurate.

Not to mention the fact that I personally don't write or ship het (with a few queered exceptions) because I am queer and am in fandom partly in order to escape all that het stuff.

(Also, if you don't think this is about you, then it probably isn't. I just felt like I had to be cranky in my own space rather than wank it up in the spaces of others.)

ETA: To be clear, I thoroughly enjoy reading and sometimes writing what I call "queered-up het", and my scorn is most certainly not including this realm of fandom.

ETAx2: Jube, as usual, hits the nail right on the fucking head.
gloss: (Community: Annie cries)

[personal profile] gloss 2010-05-30 09:53 pm (UTC)(link)
The idea that women are best celebrated in het shipping freaks me out.
Edited (icon) 2010-05-30 21:55 (UTC)
gloss: (fear)

[personal profile] gloss 2010-05-30 10:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm so sorry.

(And if you were talking about me, please know that I'm trying, just having a shitty time expressing myself clearly lately.)
gloss: (Dub-Dub winsome)

[personal profile] gloss 2010-05-30 10:30 pm (UTC)(link)
(oh phew thank hell. I worry!)

NOT TO MAKE IT ALL ABOUT ME OR ANYTHING.
sohotrightnow: the top of a swimming young woman's torso. ([stock] above the world)

[personal profile] sohotrightnow 2010-05-31 07:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I...feel like that is a bit of a false dichotomy? I didn't get the impression that [livejournal.com profile] rawles was saying anything about het being a more effective feminist alternative to M/M in the original post, just that erasure of female characters in the name of M/M is problematic. Admittedly, however, I haven't read all the comments, so she may have said something along those lines there.

(Or maybe I missed a step and this is a response to something else, not [livejournal.com profile] rawles's post. In which case, I apologize and will clear off, because that's not a discussion I'm familiar with or involved in.)
Edited 2010-05-31 19:19 (UTC)
sohotrightnow: the top of a swimming young woman's torso. ([buffy] i got every reason)

[personal profile] sohotrightnow 2010-05-31 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for clarifying! That's totally fair, and I certainly think the false dichotomy is being set up on the other side, as well, so I didn't mean to attack you and I'm sorry if it came off that way.
gloss: (Penny=pretty)

[personal profile] gloss 2010-05-31 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Re: citing sources - you're kind of damned if you do, and if you don't.

<3

ANYWAY HERE ARE MY FURTHER THOUGHTS WHICH I'M SURE YOU'VE BEEN AWAITING ANXIOUSLY. I think some of the friction in these issues comes from where one's alliances and identifications fall -- someone like you & me & probably Jube (though I'm not speaking for anyone but me) is queer-community-identified and looks for queer characters in source and fanwork. Someone else, who might very well be lesbian or bi (though Bitch magazine tells me all the cool young queer ladies are opting for "gay", WHICH BREAKS MY HEART HOSHIT *cough*), employing a traditonal 2nd or 3rd wave feminist lens, is looking for female characters first and getting their due involves, in part, allowing them their canon ship (cf. Ginny Weasley or Sam Carter or whatever), which is usually het, mainstream media being what it is.

I also think there's a distinction to be made between wanting queer stories and wanting to slash the two hot dudes, though frequently the result looks the same on the surface. The first is queer-community-identified, the second is/can be fairly traditionally heteronormative in its focus on masculinist narratives, erasure of women, and sublimation of a woman's desire through a masculinized avatar.

[personal profile] jubilancy 2010-06-01 01:04 am (UTC)(link)
Man, I think Bitch missed the fact that "gay" has always, always been a choice picked by women who are interested in presenting a "friendlier" face than "queer" or "lesbian" apparently show. Citing Ellen, for example.
irrelevant: (Default)

[personal profile] irrelevant 2010-05-30 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Heh. I'm ace and every day, irl and online, I get smacked in the face with things like:


It's the assumptions that get to me, and that icon? Massive assumption. Yeah, it's a tiny thing, but lots of tiny, thoughtless things add up to one massive, hurtful thing. I'm good at laughing stuff off/letting shit slide, except for those times when I'm not.

Sounds like you hit your wall. My empathy and sympathy: you has it.
irrelevant: (Tim: break)

[personal profile] irrelevant 2010-05-30 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)
It sucks that you feel like you *have* to stay, ugh, closer to home. I just wish more people would tell themselves, "We're all different, and that is okay." I think, "And that is a good thing," is too much to hope for at this point. D: *offers internet hugs*

(OT: awesome Cass icon.)

dancesontrains: (Marlene Dietrich)

[personal profile] dancesontrains 2010-05-30 10:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeaaaaah, that icon makes me cringe a lot as well. Not just for ace types like yourself, but people who are unable to have a sexual relationship due to past trauma or medical dysfunction :/
shewhohashope: moonlit forest/blossoms (Default)

[personal profile] shewhohashope 2010-05-30 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Pretty much all the icons at kink bingo (on my network page) rub me the wrong way, and I don't have the justification of being asexual or anything.
dancesontrains: A man a woman talk in front of a tree. (Lol SRK the stalker)

[personal profile] dancesontrains 2010-05-30 11:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think feeling uncomfortable about them needs to be justified by anything.
dancesontrains: (In my fandom Hermione is black)

[personal profile] dancesontrains 2010-05-31 03:27 pm (UTC)(link)
:( <3
gloss: (fear)

[personal profile] gloss 2010-05-31 01:50 pm (UTC)(link)
That icon has bugged me for a while, but you articulated beautifully why and I'm so sorry you have to deal with that.

<3

[personal profile] troublesteady 2010-06-02 05:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Ouch. Just: ouch. One one hand I'm curious, but on the other I really don't want to know what keywords/comments people choose to use with this icon.
msilverstar: (wtf? billy)

[personal profile] msilverstar 2010-05-30 10:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Can we stop conflating not writing/shipping het pairings (or not writing/shipping an equal ratio of male/male and female/female pairings) with misogyny? Please? It's a lot more complicated than that.

Too damn right! We're the fans, dammit, if we don't go around saying how awful women are (have seen this, trufax), we can write whatever the hell we want!
Edited 2010-05-30 22:59 (UTC)
shewhohashope: lilo plays the guitar. text: 'heroine addict' (Heroine Addict)

[personal profile] shewhohashope 2010-05-30 11:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not going to assault with an IS IT ME? comment, but I do have ~thoughts~ about this that I should express in my own space when I am able to express myself properly again.
shewhohashope: lilo plays the guitar. text: 'heroine addict' (Heroine Addict)

[personal profile] shewhohashope 2010-05-30 11:23 pm (UTC)(link)
People get paranoid easily! And I kind of assumed it wasn't me because I'm generally easygoing when I am criticising people.

They're not very complicated thoughts! Just that writing women in romantic relationships with men has as many misogynist pitfalls as writing primarily about male relationships, but mostly that I wish people would write more about/place more importance on writing about women in non-romantic relationships with men and all kinds of relationships with other women. Also that it's not inherently woman hating to not write about women, but I do judge quite harshly when women always take secondary roles to (almost always white, able-bodied, middle class, cisgendered) men who are often not so much queer as playing out the writer's fantasies. And, in my opinion. it's not so much about being interested in writing men as being interested in writing about privileged characters and ignoring marginalised characters. Otherwise, why aren't non-white men ever as popular as their white counterparts?
Edited (that actually was quite a lot) 2010-05-30 23:23 (UTC)
mona: koriand'r and donna troy hug. koriander's perm is as huge as the number of times this used to happen. huge and GLORIOUS. (kory/donna)

[personal profile] mona 2010-05-31 02:36 pm (UTC)(link)
but I do judge quite harshly when women always take secondary roles to (almost always white, able-bodied, middle class, cisgendered) men who are often not so much queer as playing out the writer's fantasies. And, in my opinion. it's not so much about being interested in writing men as being interested in writing about privileged characters and ignoring marginalised characters.

I've read this multiple times and it never gets less incisively kickass. I've linked it to a bunch (okay, 2) people I was talking about fandom's normative (white, cis, able-bodied) guy love with, and they wish to declare their love for you, too. JUST SO YOU KNOW.

I am composing a longer comment that will (or will not, knowing me) be flooding your inbox momentarily, but I at least wanted to say...that.
gloss: (Sam - hassled by love)

[personal profile] gloss 2010-05-31 08:38 pm (UTC)(link)
women always take secondary roles to (almost always white, able-bodied, middle class, cisgendered) men who are often not so much queer as playing out the writer's fantasies.
Oooooooh, yes! Oh, my, YES.

[personal profile] jubilancy 2010-05-30 11:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah. While I think there are a gazillion really important things to be said about the masculinized template usually handed writers and readers and its negative effects on everyone, I am uncomfortable with the fact that moments of genderqueer/trans identification by the presumed-female writer writing about men are being submerged in a narrative about women's misogyny. I don't think our goal as gender warriors should be to force people to explicitly identify as trans before we give them the okay to one way they might be working out their thoughts about gender identity.
mona: (anissa)

[personal profile] mona 2010-05-31 02:44 pm (UTC)(link)
because I am queer and am in fandom partly in order to escape all that het stuff.

You know I identify with this! <3 I HAVE LOTS TO SAY I'm trying really hard to get it out we will see how it goessss but I love these discussions.

[identity profile] ttindeed.livejournal.com 2010-05-31 05:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Not sure I have much to productively add to this conversation, but I really appreciate this post as you and the wonderful commenters have articulated frustrations I haven't had the words to express myself. As someone who thinks that discussions about the reproduction and normalization of all types of social inequalities are important, it is endlessly frustrating when those debates are derailed by cheap, reductive discursive tactics that willfully ignore the seemingly obvious point that context matters. So, thanks for making that point.

[identity profile] ttindeed.livejournal.com 2010-06-01 12:22 am (UTC)(link)
Eh. The fact that your comments have resonated with so many people is a good indication that, even if an oversimplification in the specific case (whatever it may be), they are hitting at a common enough general phenomenon.
glitterandlube: (Aeryn)

[personal profile] glitterandlube 2010-06-01 02:33 am (UTC)(link)
The best and most entertaining part of this for me is that normally the people who say this the loudest then turn around and write anti-women het.

Otherwise, the only het couple who ever really got me going was John Critchon and Aeryn Sun because they were basically a slash couple who actually had a baby and got married. /happiest day of my fandom life/

I am less sure about the women erasing thing because to a degree, I probably do it, but it's not because I hate women but because the choices presented are frequently unfavorable to me. Also, when working with non-canon pairings for the most part, someone will get short-changed. [Which was inverted in The Sentinel come to think of it.] I will not force myself to shoehorn in characters I have no interest in just because they're female. I don't think that behavior is pro-woman. I've tried to work with characters I wasn't happy with before to flip over the general 'she's an evil whore dooming their love' trope with Harry Potter but I have no idea how well I succeded since it ended up mostly being about Harry's fantasy fulfillment.

I think it doesn't help me much that I identify more with the men than the women. I don't know what to do about that either. I just don't care about things that are supposed to be traditional women concerns plus since I am attracted to women, I sort of have that in common with dudes, and I am very afraid of growing up and being one of those crazy ladies on the View.

blah blah, no one cares. I'll give it more thought.
gloss: (Chianna)

[personal profile] gloss 2010-06-01 12:41 pm (UTC)(link)
PLEASE WATCH FARSCAPE PLEASE PLEASE
glitterandlube: (Default)

[personal profile] glitterandlube 2010-06-02 12:00 am (UTC)(link)
Yes.

eh, I was mostly babbling anyways.

[personal profile] troublesteady 2010-06-02 05:39 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm sorry you see this perspective often enough to justify full-on "ranting". :( For the longest time I haven't been able to comfortably explore fandom, and limit my fic- and meta-reading to people I trust to not be ignorant, or people they link to.

In a different angle to what I think is connected to what your point, I have oft met with the opinion that not writing/shipping het is not only misogynistic*, it also alienates and discriminates against straight people. The horrors!

*) presumably f/f doesn't exist? Or doesn't celebrate female characters as m/f does? Or something?